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Please make fill color command consistent!

Category: QuestionsPlease make fill color command consistent!
Widhi Muttaqien asked 3 weeks ago

Hi Guys.
I can’t stress this issue enough. If you are one of the dev team, please hear me out. I’m currently making a lot of video lessons for my Udemy and Skillshare course about Krita. And this issue keep appearing and just troublesome. I keep redoing video recording and sometime just keep saying sorry to the students due to this issue.
Why in the world you want the behavior of fill color commands to “delete color” when the brush tool is set to “eraser brush” preset? Here are the logics:

  • Is there any users in the world who create a selection and then hold Shift and then hit Backspace in hope that the pixel inside the selection get deleted? No body! Why? Because you can simply press Delete to perform that?
  • When your brush in eraser mode, or worse you have an eraser brush preset active. What happen if you press Delete? it will DELETE. What happen if you press Backspace? it will DELETE. And what happen if you press Shift+Backspace? it will DELETE. So you have 3 different keyboard shortcuts to DELETE? And what shortcut should I use to fill with foreground color? NONE. And what shortcut should I use to fill with background color? NONE.
  • With this behavior, Krita is forcing the user to always be in a non-eraser brush. I find myself in the scenario of having the selection tool active and after carefully create a selection and hit shift+backsapce all of the pixels in the selection are gone. I have to redo, then press B to go to the brush tool, then right click to open the pop-up palette. Choose a brush that is not an eraser brush. Then hit shift+backsapce. Please guys, this behavior is hurting user experience.
Ahab Greybeard replied 3 weeks ago

“… 4. At this stage what you would do to make the gradient work again?
– Turn off the eraser mode? no can do. It wont work. It only work on other brush tool, not eraser brush preset.
– Change the brush to other brush? no can do that also. Brush preset wont even open….”

In this and other situations, you can select any of the very many non-erasing brush presets from the Brush Presets docker or the Brush Preset History docker by clicking them. You don’t need to go back to the Brush tool to do that.

Widhi Muttaqien replied 3 weeks ago

Hi Ahab. I always have my brush preset docker and brush history docker turned off because at the the top we already have a brush preset button. it just redundant to have them both.
But, just imagine yourself as a beginner here, do you find it a bit strange to have to choose a brush when what you actually want to do is to NOT use a brush, you want to create a gradient, not brush strokes. Or is it not strange that in order to use gradient you need to have the brush preset docker always open?
I understand the philosophy behind the erase mode, it makes sense IF ONLY the erase mode is independent from the brush. For example I can make the gradient tool to fill or to erase simply by turning on or off the “eraser mode” regardless of what brush I’m using. because gradient tool is for gradient and brush tool is for brush. You don’t make one tool as the prerequisite of the other tool. it just confusing.

Ahab Greybeard replied 3 weeks ago

The button on the top toolbar that has the icon of the curently selected brush preset is the Brush (preset) Editor and is intended for making detailed changes to the properties of the brush preset.
I do agree that there is some ‘logical confusion’ at the user level in needing to have a particular type of brush preset selected in order to make a gradient or fill tool work as it should do. I assume this is because of some deep technical/structural design factors inside the code.
However, I always take a pragmatic approach and work around limitations and peculiarities. There are only three eraser presets so I’d remember to select a non-eraser preset if i wanted to use fill or gradient etc. If I was using a ‘painting brush’ and had it set to eraser mode, I’d turn eraser mode off with a simple click. Also, it’s very easy to set up the brush presets on the popup palette. Setting up and arranging things to suit you is important and useful and a good investment of your time and effort.

Widhi Muttaqien replied 3 weeks ago

No, I’m not talking about the brush editor. I’m talking about the button besides that button where you can select brush preset and filter and assign tag. Its functioning just like the brush preset docker. But it won’t open if you are not in brush tool for example in gradient tool.
Yes I’ve been doing the workaround for myself all this time. The thing is I’m not using Krita for myself. I’m teaching > 30,000 students (20,000 at Udemy, 6,000 at skillshare and 4,000 youtube subs) on how to use Krita. Most of them used other graphic application before. Teaching them that this behavior exist and you need to do the workaround is just like giving them a bad experience and giving Krita a “bad name”. I just feel bad about it and I really believe that Krita can be better.
My main issue is actually the fill color commands. It is stated in the edit menu that Shift+Backspace is for filling in with foreground color and Backspace is for background color. So you read the text like this:
Clear => delete
Fill with foreground color => Shift+Backspace
Fill with background color => Backspace
But what actually happen when you have the eraser brush active is this:
Clear => delete
Clear => Shift+Backspace
Clear => Backspace
Can I ask to the dev team. Is there any of you want to clear pixels inside a selection by pressing Shift+Backspace? Just one of you, want to do this? No body want to do that! So we’re creating a feature that no one is using. Besides they are menu commands, not tool. Why is the brush tool has to influence this command?

4 Answers
Wolthera van Hövell Staff answered 3 weeks ago

It is consistent now, actually, all other tools, gradients, geometric tools, use this behaviour, what you are asking for is making it less consistent.
Furthermore, why are you posting this on the ask site? The ask site is for questions, we have a forum for discussion.

Widhi Muttaqien replied 3 weeks ago

Hi Wolthera. Thank you for answering so quickly.
No it is not consistent because the eraser mode depends on the brush tool, not independent to each of the tool. Each tool should have their own erase mode, or make the erase mode not based on the brush.
Let me give you an example:
1. Please pick “erase circle” brush.
2. Then go to gradient tool.
3. Try to create a gradient with it. You can’t. You erase using it instead.
4. At this stage what you would do to make the gradient work again?
– Turn off the eraser mode? no can do. It wont work. It only work on other brush tool, not eraser brush preset.
– Change the brush to other brush? no can do that also. Brush preset wont even open.
5. The only option is the pop-up palette right? But what if you haven’t set up your pop up palette or it is empty?
6. If no.5 is not an option, you need to go back to brush tool mode. then change the brush to other brush. then go back to gradient tool 🙁

It is because I don’t know where to put feature request. I tried open this link:
https://krita.org/en/item/ways-to-help-krita-work-on-feature-requests/
it says at the end:
To summarize: a good feature request:
– starts with the need to streamline a certain workflow, not with the need for a copy of a feature in another application
– has been discussed on the forums with other artists
– is illustrated with mock-ups and example
– gets discussed with UX people
– and is finally prepared as a proposal
– and then it’s time to find time to implement it!
– and then you need to test the result
Then what? there is no link of where I should post the feature request? This page is just confusing.
But I just found out from your answer that there is a forum for feature request. Okay I will do that instead.

Wolthera van Hövell Staff replied 3 weeks ago

You are welcome to come and help improve that page(see the contributor’s readme for instructions). Do realize the vast majority of us are volunteers working on Krita in their spare time, me included.

Widhi Muttaqien replied 3 weeks ago

I just open the forum but I’m still confused on where should I post the request.
I understand about the condition of open source development. You guys are great making Krita up until this stage. I’m also pushing this because I love Krita, and want to make Krita better for all of us. No one pay me to spend time writing this request 🙂 It just that I believe it is the right thing for Krita to implement.

Widhi Muttaqien answered 3 weeks ago

Besides that.
Fill color commands are not tools. They are menu items. The menu clearly stated that:
Clear => delete
Fill with foreground color => Shift+Backspace
Fill with background color => Backspace
They should behave as the text menu stated and should not have anything to do with what brush you have selected. If you select an eraser brush presets (such as eraser circle, or eraser small etc) no matter you turn off or on the eraser mode it always gonna be like this:
Clear => delete
Clear  => Shift+Backspace
Clear  => Backspace
If the shortcut do something else then you should state that in the menu so people don’t get confused. Or just drop that erasing behavior on the fill color command. We can create a pool from the users, ask who wants to press Shift+Backspace to erase pixels?
 

Attachments
Widhi Muttaqien answered 3 weeks ago

Hi Wolthera and Ahab.
If you watch this video from start to finish, you’ll understand why this behavior (turning fill-color shortcut to become delete) is not helping anyone and it will just trip people off into making mistakes.

This video is unlisted and it is supposed to be for my upcoming skillshare course. I will remove / make this video private in 3 days from now.

Genevieve Young answered 2 weeks ago

I’m one of those weird people that use fill command set to erase for delete. The logic makes sense to me, but I can see how it can be confusing when you put it that way. 

Widhi Muttaqien replied 2 weeks ago

Hi Genevieve. Do you really set the brush to eraser, then create selection and then hold shift and the press backspace to delete? But why, when you can just press Delete to do that?
I think we should respect a user who “gone through the hassle” of pressing Shift+Backspace by grant him/her to fill with foreground color don’t you think?

Genevieve Young replied 2 weeks ago

It’s actually more convenient for me, because of the way I set up my shortcuts. Delete is all the way on the right side of the keyboard and I have a shortcut set on the left side that does the fill action. It’s good that eraser mode means I can also fill and erase while using the same shortcut.

Having eraser mode being a global factor is more positives than negatives for me. For one, it works for any other blending mode, so that if I have blending mode set to overlay, for example, my fills automatically are on overlay mode. It works the same for gradients as well, which leads to some fun effects.

Since you are a teacher I hope you can see this obstacle as more of a teaching opportunity than an obstacle, as having it set up this way can open up more possibilities than getting rid of one roadblock can produce. I suggest you play with these settings for a while and see what happens. Best of luck, Gen